Episode 3
Little Lord Fauntleroy- Waukesha's Cold Case w/ Josh Hughes
On March 8th, 1921, the remains of a young boy were found floating in a pond near the O’Laughlin Stone Company’s Waukesha quarry.
The boy was dressed in a gray sweater, black stockings, a blouse, patent leather shoes, and Munsing undergarments. The quality clothing and fancifully dressed suggested the young man was from means.
The newspaper writers gave the unidentified boy the nickname, Little Lord Fauntleroy after the literary title which depicted a young well-dressed boy who was adopted into aristocracy.
Who was this little boy and how did he end up at the quarry?
Mike and Jeff are joined by Josh Hughes from Waukesha Ghost Walks to discuss the tragic tale of Little Lord Fauntleroy. Josh gives his insights on the case as they discuss the motives behind his killing and his possibly identity.
Little Lord Fauntleroy (literary character)
Little Lord Fauntleroy (victim)
Fisherman John St. Croix River (Stillwater, MN)
Change.org Exhumation Petition
Mound Builders of the Mississippi Valley
Scientific Studies/Papers
Filicide in the US: Indian Journal of Psychiatry- Resnick
Child Sacrifice in the Western World- David Medeema (2004) Journal of Critical Thinking and Bioethics - CedarEthics, vol. 4, pp. 5-7. ISSN 2333-9713
Wisconsin Rapids native, Jeff Finup is the mind behind Badgerland Legends, which explores Wisconsin's mysteries and fascinating history, a post at a time. Legends, lore, history, cryptids ,and more from the Badger State. Find his work on Instagram and Facebook.
Mike Huberty, hailing from the town of Big Bend, near Milwaukee, is the owner of American Ghost Walks, a haunted history tour company with locations in Maine, California, Illinois, Minnesota, Puerto Rico, Hawaii, and started in our very own Badger State of Wisconsin - with tours in Lake Geneva, Milwaukee, Madison, Waukesha, Bayfield, and the Wisconsin Dells. Find out more at AmericanGhostWalks.Com.
Mentioned in this episode:
See us in person at the 2023 Milwaukee Paracon for a live podcast recording of Wisconsin Legends Podcast! Registration is free. More details at https://www.milwaukeeparacon.com
Transcript
Wisconsin, a paranormal paradise with lake
Speaker:monsters, dogmen haunted hotels, famous ghosts, and
Speaker:deadly killers. It's a lot more than just America's
Speaker:dairyland. It's time for a deep dive into the weird,
Speaker:wonderful and terrifying that's lying just below the surface of
Speaker:reality. From American ghostwalks and Badgerland
Speaker:Legends. This is the Wisconsin Legends
Speaker:podcast.
Speaker:All right, guys, before we get started in today's episode, I want to give
Speaker:you two notes. First, we get really dark in this
Speaker:episode. We discuss themes like child death in ritual,
Speaker:child sacrifice. So if you're sensitive to those topics, you got young
Speaker:kids around, probably not the best episode for you. Second,
Speaker:after the episode, there's a special segment that you won't
Speaker:want to miss. All right, let's get into the show.
Speaker:Welcome to the Wisconsin Legends Podcast. This is Mike
Speaker:Huberty with American ghostwalks. And I am joined by
Speaker:Jeff Finnap Badgerland Legends. And today we've got a really
Speaker:special guest for you from the Waukeshaw Ghost
Speaker:Walk. We've got Josh Hughes, our fantastic Waukeshaw
Speaker:guide. Yes, thank you for the wonderful intro, Josh.
Speaker:People here have already heard about how I got into the paranormal, how Jeff got
Speaker:interested in the beginning. How did you get interested
Speaker:in the weirder side of the world? Well, it all really
Speaker:started from some experiences I had as a young kid at my home in
Speaker:Waukesha. That really led me down a path of anything
Speaker:weird, just trying to learn more, discover what it is. And that's led me now
Speaker:to my house where I live in Waukesha with my wife. So you're a lifelong
Speaker:Waukeshaw resident? Minus the few years I spent. Oshkosh green
Speaker:Bay, New York Basically most of it was in Waukesha. All right. And now he's
Speaker:back. Now he's back to let everybody know what kind of weird stuff
Speaker:happened in a town. You just wouldn't quite expect it.
Speaker:Now you have an unsolved cold case
Speaker:for us all the way from 100 years in
Speaker:the making. And this is something that when I grew up in the
Speaker:area, it was a story that I had never heard. I'm fascinated to hear
Speaker:what you've come up with and in your research, what you've
Speaker:discovered about this particular unsolved murder. Please let
Speaker:us know. This is one of the stories that when I first started doing The
Speaker:ghostwalks, when he first hired me, I was like, hey, Mike, did you hear about
Speaker:the little kid that died in the pond? And you're like, yeah, little Lord fault.
Speaker:Leroy of course I've heard of him, right? And I thought I had, like, this
Speaker:golden nugget that I was presenting to you, but you're like, yeah, everybody knows about
Speaker:that. The thing is, not everybody has ever heard about this story. A lot of
Speaker:lifelong Waukesha residents are like, oh, my God. It started about
Speaker:100 years ago on March 8, 1921, when a
Speaker:worker at the O'Loughlin Stone Company was just going to work
Speaker:for the morning, and he stumbles upon this dead body in
Speaker:the pond. So this would have been a retention pond for the quarry.
Speaker:Correct. The quarry at that time would not have been that deep. This was a
Speaker:retention pond nearby. And if you're familiar with Wakasha, if you live there now, if
Speaker:you go through there, it's the big quarry that's just beyond
Speaker:the really? You can't miss it. It's right there. So it's
Speaker:still here today. It's still a place you can go and check out. Do they
Speaker:still dig up stones and stuff? It's still an active quarry. It's under a different
Speaker:name now. But I did reach out to them to see if I could get
Speaker:a tour, just kind of see where everything happened. And they haven't responded
Speaker:yet. Okay. Maybe when they hear the podcast, they'll let me inside the gates.
Speaker:All right, we hope basically this worker finds this little body floating in the
Speaker:pond. He runs back to the company office, and that's when they phone the
Speaker:sheriff. So the sheriff comes down with the coroner and they drove over
Speaker:to the quarry pond. When they were doing a little more
Speaker:digging in the area, they decided they had to call in the Milwaukee Police Department
Speaker:to conduct a wide search and to possibly
Speaker:identify who this little child was
Speaker:dead in the pond just for the uninitiated. How far is
Speaker:Waukeshaw from Milwaukee? So Waukesha today
Speaker:is probably a 2025 minutes drive.
Speaker:Back then it could have been close to an hour. Right. So before
Speaker:the interstates came in. Because right now, if you're going on like I 94 or
Speaker:whatever, you can get from downtown Milwaukee to downtown
Speaker:Walkershaw in about 20 minutes without traffic or anything. Right. It's a good question because
Speaker:back then this is a big deal of, okay, we got to call the Milwaukee
Speaker:Police Department. That's probably going to be maybe an hour. One way to get there.
Speaker:They call the police out. They're trying to find any
Speaker:clues as to who this little dead boy is. Now,
Speaker:they did make note of his physical features, which no longer seemed
Speaker:to exist. As I reached out to the Waukesha
Speaker:Police Department and the Waukesha Sheriff's Department, they basically,
Speaker:quote, unquote, said our record keeping was not that good
Speaker:back then. So I'm sorry, but we don't have anything from before
Speaker:1944, which different time. Right. It's
Speaker:100 years. So give them a little bit of. A break there, which most of
Speaker:my stories take place before the 40s, so. We'Re not going to steal any
Speaker:evidence from the Walker Show evidence locker, unfortunately. Right.
Speaker:They did note that the boy was likely between the age of five and seven
Speaker:years old, quite short, less than 4ft tall. He had
Speaker:blonde hair and brown eyes. Now, the child didn't appear to be
Speaker:malnourished, and there was no physical marks of abuse on his
Speaker:body. But what did capture the police
Speaker:and thereafter the nation's attention, was his very
Speaker:strange attire. He was dressed in a blouse, a button up shirt, a gray
Speaker:sweater from the at the time, very expensive Bradley
Speaker:Knitting Company. He was wearing underwear, black stockings and
Speaker:patent leather shoes. You can kind of paint the picture that this
Speaker:boy was very well dressed. Maybe he was from money
Speaker:or a very well to do family. A boy like this turns up,
Speaker:he's of means it seems like he'd been prominent in
Speaker:a community of some sort and somebody would come looking for him.
Speaker:Correct. You think that people are going to miss this kid, right?
Speaker:It's not just some random bum off the street. Well, right. And if it was
Speaker:just some kind of random murder or
Speaker:they were trying to get rid of him, why bother with the nice
Speaker:clothing? That could be something you could resell maybe
Speaker:for the evidence or whatever, right? But why bother dressing him so
Speaker:nicely if you're just going to kill him and throw him in the quarry
Speaker:where you hope that no one will ever see him, right. Already very
Speaker:suspicious. Right. And the police knew that when they first found the
Speaker:boy. When the newspaper reporters got sight of the
Speaker:child, they read the police file. They dubbed this mystery
Speaker:Dead Boy little Lord Fauntleroy. And it's taken
Speaker:me years to be able to pronounce that name, right. But Little
Speaker:Lord Fauntleroy was named after this lavish character
Speaker:featured at the time in a hugely popular piece of
Speaker:sentimental fiction. The book was by Francis Hodgson.
Speaker:Burnett? From what I've been told, the people that have read the book,
Speaker:I guess kind of similar to Matilda, a little kid that gets into
Speaker:antics. Right. But then also the idea, I think that the things he
Speaker:was wearing comes from the story is that it's like an
Speaker:American boy that learns that he's got an English title,
Speaker:right? So then he goes over to the UK
Speaker:and it's like King Ralph with John Goodman. You guys remember that movie
Speaker:where he find that John Goodman is like an American slob and he
Speaker:finds out that actually he's in line to the British throne
Speaker:and goes over there and makes jokes about the food, like Spotted Dick. And
Speaker:the idea is the vulgar American coming over to
Speaker:the high class aristocracy of England.
Speaker:And that's a little bit of a little Lord Fauntleroy. And it's a popular
Speaker:thing. You have this idea of this kid dressed in high society,
Speaker:but he's found in a place where you
Speaker:dump a derelict, right? Yeah. So I guess in hindsight, it's
Speaker:almost as if they were poking a little fun at this boy. To
Speaker:me, when I first heard the story, I thought that it was a
Speaker:little like it was a little mocking or a little
Speaker:cavalier for the tragedy
Speaker:and seriousness of a dead child. Right? And
Speaker:really after that, there was not much else to be written about
Speaker:this strange dead boy that was in Waukesha, as they did
Speaker:a little more further investigation. They weren't quite sure
Speaker:how long he had been in this pond. They estimated between a week
Speaker:and six months. Well, and you think he's found in March,
Speaker:right? March eigth is when he was found, yeah. So he's found in March.
Speaker:So the water could have been cold, maybe frozen
Speaker:for a while, maybe preserved. Him a little bit. Preserved him a little bit better
Speaker:than if he's found in August, right? Yeah, that's true. And really,
Speaker:besides suggesting that he came for money based on the attire, police
Speaker:were at a loss for who this kid was. This is where the story
Speaker:gets interesting, trying to figure out who Little Lord Fault Norway was.
Speaker:So in an attempt to gather some information, the police put him on
Speaker:display at a local funeral home. Now, that building still exists
Speaker:to this day. It used to be a funeral home and a crematorium, but
Speaker:now I believe it is a law office and a hair
Speaker:salon. Every time I pass it on the Waukesha tour, I point out this is
Speaker:where the boy was when it was the funeral home.
Speaker:Sounds like a place ripe for ghost hunting. I wonder if the lawyers in the
Speaker:office realize what the origins of the building were. Well, yeah. I
Speaker:mean, with typical funeral homes, occasionally there can be a
Speaker:spirit that still hangs out after many years. Well, and if the lawyers won't talk
Speaker:about it, you know, the girls at the hair salon will.
Speaker:Every time I get my hair done and they ask what I do and I
Speaker:go in, they're like, well, let me tell you about what happened to me. And
Speaker:I'm like, excellent. What is it with hairdressers and ghost
Speaker:stories? Because whenever I say, oh, yeah, I'm doing something in paranormal, they
Speaker:always have an anecdote for me. They must just be a little more
Speaker:plugged in. That's funny you say that. I just went to a new
Speaker:hairdresser, and my wife's been going to him for years, and when he
Speaker:found out I was into this stuff, he's like, oh, yeah, I know this gay
Speaker:witch that lives in Milwaukee. You really got to meet him. He's the most interesting
Speaker:character. And every time I go get my hair cut now, we talk about the
Speaker:gay witch in Milwaukee. Who self proclaimed gay witch.
Speaker:I didn't give them that title. Sounds good. I want to meet the gay witch
Speaker:in Milwaukee. We'll have to bring him on for his own Wisconsin legend. Sounds like
Speaker:Alison and T need to hook up with him for the Milwaukee tour. I agree.
Speaker:That could be interesting. So
Speaker:as this Little Lord Fault Neroy is displayed in the funeral home
Speaker:window, the public is invited to come on in. And do you know who
Speaker:this kid is? Right. And while many people came to see
Speaker:him, no one could offer up any more information. The case goes
Speaker:cold for quite some time until a quarry worker comes up with some more information.
Speaker:Now, he gave the police their very first lead on who the identity of
Speaker:Fault Leroy might be. And he had said a couple weeks prior,
Speaker:he had witnessed a young woman in a red sweater wandering
Speaker:aimlessly throughout the pond. As he approached this woman exactly what
Speaker:are you doing here? She anxiously inquired about whether he had
Speaker:seen a little boy in the neighborhood. Now, this quarry
Speaker:worker added that the woman in red then joined a male
Speaker:companion, and they drove away in their car. That seems to
Speaker:be a really good tip right there. You got a woman looking for a boy.
Speaker:There's another guy there. She's anxious about it. He says, we didn't see anybody, and
Speaker:they get in the car. Right. Do we know in the timeline
Speaker:from when the boy's body was discovered that this
Speaker:other quarry worker came about with this story? Now, he stated this was
Speaker:about five weeks before the corpse was found. And when did he come forward with
Speaker:the information? After. So from my notes,
Speaker:it looks like it isn't quite noted when
Speaker:this Corey worker came forward with the information, it could have been
Speaker:a couple of weeks, it could have been a month after. The couple was never
Speaker:located by police. I'm sure it would have been close to impossible to find a
Speaker:woman in a red sweater. Right. But the authorities did receive a tip
Speaker:that the same exact woman had died by suicide in the
Speaker:same pond where fault Narroy had been found.
Speaker:So what they did was they set off dynamite in the water in hopes that
Speaker:the explosion would bring another corpse to the surface. But despite their
Speaker:efforts, they didn't find any more bodies in that pond. I love that that was
Speaker:their solution to it. So it's like, here's what we could do. We could dredge
Speaker:the pond, we could look around. Instead, we're just going to
Speaker:blow something up right. And hope a body comes up, hops
Speaker:out. Well, it's quarry, so they're stocked with dynamite. So it seems like the
Speaker:logical solution. Right? No, but that's just like well, you know, we could
Speaker:they used to have mystical means of doing that. There was a guy on the
Speaker:St. Croix river in Minnesota near Stillwater, who they were called
Speaker:fisherman John, and his specialty was
Speaker:finding bodies in the St. Croix river because so many people,
Speaker:their relatives were lumberjacks or their sons or their husbands, and people would
Speaker:just disappear without a trace. They would do things like put mercury quicksilver.
Speaker:They would put that in bread and put it in the water and see if
Speaker:it would pop up in a certain area. And that was supposed to show where
Speaker:the dead body was. And fisherman John, like he had a business card that he
Speaker:was the finder of lost bodies. They should have called him out to waukesha
Speaker:instead of using dynamite. Right. I think he was just dead by that point because
Speaker:I think he died in the early 19 hundreds. Sure. But I'm sure he had
Speaker:somebody in his family that could have been like, I got some bread. Yeah. Let's
Speaker:break open a thermometer and see if we can find a body.
Speaker:The detectives, their only theory as to what this
Speaker:couple was doing there is that they sent their little fault
Speaker:Neroy boy off to play while they made love in the car
Speaker:and that he had tragically fallen into the pond and
Speaker:drowned. They quickly dismissed this theory when
Speaker:the coroner's examination revealed that the body had a
Speaker:deep cut on the head, which indicated
Speaker:Fauntleroy had been beaten, slashed,
Speaker:whatever, on the head with a blunt object before
Speaker:presuming thrown into the pond. They also
Speaker:revealed that he had very little water in his lungs, which means he was most
Speaker:likely dead before he was thrown into the quarry. I like
Speaker:how their first theory is that,
Speaker:oh, yeah, well, you know what happened? The couple was doing it, and then they
Speaker:just sent the boy off and he fell in. Right. Yeah. It's like, go wander
Speaker:off by the quarry there. Anybody who grew up in Waukesha knows that you're
Speaker:supposed to go to the missile silo if you want to make out guilty. Yes,
Speaker:guilty. In high school, it was a creepy place to go in Waukesha,
Speaker:but they're making that into a very nice outdoor space now.
Speaker:Oh, okay. That's going to be a cool place to go. And then you go
Speaker:down to Raise Grain. It's going to be a very nice area. All right, well,
Speaker:I hope they keep the parking lot. The police, then they decided to post a
Speaker:picture of the boy in every single newspaper in the Midwest. And
Speaker:three men offered a financial reward of
Speaker:$250 large sum of money at the time for any
Speaker:information on the identity of this unknown boy and or
Speaker:his killers. Nothing came out of that. They then raised the reward
Speaker:to a still. There was nothing on who fault
Speaker:Naroy might be or who killed him. It seemed the
Speaker:case would close until the owner of a local department store
Speaker:in Waukesha insisted to police that he had sold the clothes
Speaker:that were on little Lord Fauntleroy when he was found dead
Speaker:in the pond. And he says he sold his clothes in January. So now
Speaker:you can kind of narrow down that timeline of, I think
Speaker:they said a week up to six months, down to maybe three or so months,
Speaker:sure. But there was no way to determine who actually bought the clothing. There
Speaker:were no receipts. I mean, if there's no police reports back then, there's probably not
Speaker:good receipt keeping. Well. And David Dobrik, the place that he owned was called Liberty
Speaker:Department Store. And that sounds like a Waukeshaw department
Speaker:store. So many department stores back then. Right.
Speaker:And Liberty, I mean, it's right after World War I,
Speaker:and I think somebody today would probably still name their Waukesha department
Speaker:store liberty or Freedom or, like, pull my guns out of my
Speaker:cold, dead hands kind of thing. I did a tour of
Speaker:Waukesha during the preservation days, and there was a
Speaker:woman, probably she was close to 80 in a nice
Speaker:old Victorian era dress, and she pointed out every single
Speaker:dry goods store and department store that she went to as a kid. And he
Speaker:just had no idea that there was that much business in downtown
Speaker:Waukesha as late as the Waukesha kind of went through
Speaker:a downtime in the 90s, but now it's rejuvenating again. It's
Speaker:becoming a fun place to go to again. It's a really fun place to go
Speaker:to when you guys go on the Waukesha Ghost walk, that's what makes it. Really
Speaker:happening this summer. The Beatles bar Leto B will be open
Speaker:then, and it's going to be a really fun time. Good. Well, let's hope they
Speaker:don't find any more dead kids.
Speaker:Another break then surfaced a few months later when a witness claimed to be
Speaker:able to identify the unknown boy. A Chicago man named
Speaker:JB. Bilson stated the child was his
Speaker:nephew and the son of his sister. This
Speaker:man explained that his sister's ex husband had kidnapped their two
Speaker:children and even threatened to kill them on several
Speaker:occasions. Seemed like a promising lead. But then the police
Speaker:investigated the claims, and they verified that the children were actually
Speaker:alive and well. Thus the killer of little Lord Fauntleroy Roy
Speaker:and his identity back to a cold case. And you'd be surprised
Speaker:when you talk about, like, family members kidnapping kids and
Speaker:then taking them out of state and what the law could do about
Speaker:that. That happened to my own family in Milwaukee in the
Speaker:1950s. One of my uncles
Speaker:ran off with some waitress or something like that to Florida with his
Speaker:daughter and left his wife and the other kids
Speaker:behind, and there was just nothing they could do about it. Right.
Speaker:So people seeing that and then this J. B. Belson guy, and he
Speaker:says, man, this guy's horrible. To my sister, he's threatened them, all
Speaker:these kind of things. I bet it was him who killed them. And then
Speaker:you just feel for that family. Like, no matter that GE Hormage's kids
Speaker:were found alive, that's great. Their family still needs to go to counseling
Speaker:or know it's still a tragedy. Yeah. It's such a different
Speaker:time. We really can't relate or fathom how different
Speaker:police work and family lives were back then. There's no Child Protective services.
Speaker:No, there's some social welfare stuff, but not like today.
Speaker:There's no number to call when you see somebody beat a kid. Right. Yeah. It
Speaker:was good discipline back then, I suppose. Right
Speaker:after this, what seemed like a promising lead, they announced that the
Speaker:remains of Little Lord Fault Neroy would be transported to the Weber Funeral
Speaker:Home to be properly prepared for a burial and there was a
Speaker:local woman in Waukeshan named Minnie Conrad who spearheaded a fundraiser
Speaker:to help with the funeral costs. So on March 14,
Speaker:1921 that would have been
Speaker:not that long after the boy was found. No, not even a week. So, Jeff,
Speaker:we can go back to your question of
Speaker:when did this Corey worker come about
Speaker:saying, I saw the woman in the red shirt? It was probably a few days
Speaker:after they put him into the funeral home's front window.
Speaker:Yeah, in the first week. Right there. Right. So they buried him on March 14,
Speaker:and a small white casket was gently lowered into the ground
Speaker:at Prairie Home Cemetery. Now, an unknown person
Speaker:had scrawled our Darling on the lid of the casket, and
Speaker:Minnie Conrad placed a bouquet on the boy's grave every year
Speaker:until she died. I did find a newspaper article talking more about
Speaker:Mrs. Conrad. She recalls the day that she found out they found
Speaker:a dead child in the quarry. And she says that someone
Speaker:came into the store I was working at and said that they found a little
Speaker:boy who had been murdered in the quarry. And she went to look at the
Speaker:little boy, and her heart filled with pity. I thought my
Speaker:own little grandsons could have been this boy. And I felt sorry that he would
Speaker:have to be buried in a public cemetery. So that's when she
Speaker:raised the money. I think she said it was $170 for the outfit
Speaker:and the casket. And that's when they buried him in
Speaker:Prairie Home Cemetery. Every year on March eigth, mrs. Conrad had
Speaker:a pilgrimage where she would go up to the gravestone and put flowers on there
Speaker:to pay honor to little Lord Fauntleroy. Now, her last pilgrimage was
Speaker:in 1940, and she recalls, it was a very snowy and
Speaker:cold day, but she made the journey to visit
Speaker:this unknown boy. And that same day, she repeated her hopes
Speaker:for the future. If I can only live long enough to hear the
Speaker:murderer of that boy confess and get what's coming to him, I have a
Speaker:feeling that someday he will come to my door and tell me why he
Speaker:did it. Unfortunately, that never happened. She passed away,
Speaker:and she was buried right next to the unknown boy.
Speaker:Beautiful story. It's nice to see someone with so much heart for someone that she
Speaker:had no idea who even was. We probably wouldn't know the
Speaker:story without Minnie Conrad keeping the memory alive
Speaker:and going to visit like people do for Jim Morrison's grave. Or
Speaker:remember the mystery person that leaves the doesn't they leave a bottle on
Speaker:Edgar Allan Poe's grave in Baltimore every year? Sure, leave the
Speaker:guy like a bottle of alcohol. Like alcohol didn't destroy his life. And then there
Speaker:was a mystery woman in black in Los Angeles. And we talk about this
Speaker:in our Hollywood tour or an La bus tour. We go to Hollywood forever.
Speaker:Cemetery that she used to leave a bouquet of flowers
Speaker:by Rudolph Valentino's grave every year on the anniversary of his
Speaker:death. Sure. Really, it's sad that this happened. It's cool that she kept the memory
Speaker:alive, and it's cool that she's had that effort. Like, let's give this child a
Speaker:proper burial. Let's give him the respect that he didn't get in life. And it
Speaker:is quite the little gravestone to go visit. Once I heard about this story, I
Speaker:was like, I got to go up to Prairie Home and add this to kind
Speaker:of my rotation of graves that I go to involved with stories on the
Speaker:tour. Recently, I went to visit the grave of Little Lord
Speaker:Fauntleroy, and to this day, there's still coins, little
Speaker:trucks, toys, because people do go there and still visit
Speaker:him, because it's one of the famous stories of waukesha.
Speaker:So, really, this story goes cold for about 20
Speaker:years, and you've got Mrs. Conrad visiting him.
Speaker:And there seems to be a strange epilogue that occurred in
Speaker:1949. That is when a medical examiner from
Speaker:Milwaukee hypothesized that the unknown boy could actually have
Speaker:been a child named Homer Lemay who
Speaker:disappeared around the same time that Little Lord Fauntleroy had
Speaker:been found in the quarry pond. Now, Homer's father,
Speaker:Edmund, was questioned after his son's continued
Speaker:absence, but Edmund stated that Homer had been adopted
Speaker:by a Chicago couple in 1921. Lemay
Speaker:claimed that they had taken the boy to Argentina, of all places,
Speaker:right. And later sent a clipping to him that alleged the
Speaker:boy was killed in an automobile accident.
Speaker:Now, if it's believable enough that a
Speaker:Chicago couple adopted your kid, then they went to
Speaker:Argentina, and then they said, hey, actually he died in a car
Speaker:accident. That's a few red flags going up. Right. Yeah. And here's the
Speaker:newspaper. Don't bother coming to the funeral. They could have sent him
Speaker:a telegraph. They could have called him at that point. Right. Something, anything that
Speaker:your son is now dead in Argentina. Right. It just gets a bit bizarre.
Speaker:And the Milwaukee police investigated this. They actually sent a
Speaker:detective to Argentina, but found no proof to validate
Speaker:that these claims, including a newspaper article. Nothing was
Speaker:found that could say Homer Lemay died in
Speaker:Argentina. But what's even weirder than that is that
Speaker:Edmund Lemay, his wife, went missing, and he says
Speaker:she ran off and that there was no foul play suspected. And they actually ended
Speaker:up searching the same quarry where the body of Little Lord
Speaker:Fauntleroy was found. But again, they found no more bodies
Speaker:in that pond. So it's just bizarre that this Edmund
Speaker:character, his son, goes missing, and then his wife goes
Speaker:missing. Perhaps he has a history of getting rid of people he doesn't
Speaker:want around in his life anymore. Yeah. And to play devil's
Speaker:advocate for Edmund, his wife, maybe he wasn't a
Speaker:straight shooter, and maybe his wife did up and leave him, but it
Speaker:is highly suspect that both his wife and his son went
Speaker:missing in succession. Right. Well, I mean, if just, like,
Speaker:devil's advocate here. I don't know Edmund or whatever, and I'm not the
Speaker:prosecutor, but what do you do in
Speaker:1921 as a single father if your wife up
Speaker:and leaves, takes off, and you don't know what to do with your kid? Maybe
Speaker:he didn't know how to take care of a kid. Maybe he didn't have enough
Speaker:family himself. And so he says, Well, I want to give this boy a mother
Speaker:and a father. And so the kid gets adopted by a Chicago couple. But there's
Speaker:got to be some kind of you figured there'd be some kind of records. Now,
Speaker:this is 20, 28, 29 years later. So this is happening in
Speaker:1949, and the original case happened that they find the body
Speaker:1921. So say this is 1920. So it's almost
Speaker:30 years later. And you would think that they'd be able to find some adoption
Speaker:records at, like, a church or something. Right.
Speaker:But the cops come up empty handed. They said they got to Argentina. Imagine getting
Speaker:that assignment. Hey, Jones, you're going to Argentina. Find a
Speaker:newspaper, bring some good cigars back too. Right? Right. You hope that the guy
Speaker:spoke Spanish. I will say in maybe accusing
Speaker:Edmund a bit more, when oh, yeah, let's fry him. Yeah.
Speaker:When Fauntleroy was being displayed in the funeral home,
Speaker:they actually took a few photos of him, which don't really seem to exist
Speaker:anymore. And when they reopened this case in
Speaker:1949, they compared the photo of Homer
Speaker:Lemay and little Lord Fauntleroy, and they showed them to people who
Speaker:were around during that time. And they said that's the same exact
Speaker:kid got eyewitnesses that have seen the body, have seen the photos,
Speaker:which Jeff does have. And they basically said that's
Speaker:the kid. But there was no evidence that they could prosecute
Speaker:Edmund with. Right. You still have to have a case against them, and everything's still
Speaker:circumstantial until you have that. Yeah. And they even wanted
Speaker:to exhume the body to see if this was the same
Speaker:child. However, the sheriff and the coroner decided not
Speaker:to do that and to ultimately let Little Lord fault Naroy rest in
Speaker:peace. He is still there to this day. Simple little
Speaker:tombstone. Unknown boy found in O. Loughlin Quarry, Waukesha,
Speaker:Wisconsin. March 8, 1921. And you can
Speaker:see that the pictures that they put in the newspaper of him, they're very
Speaker:1920s. The things he's wearing striped
Speaker:rompers, black stockings. Yeah. Black rubbers for his
Speaker:boots, the white cloth top button shoes, dark gray
Speaker:sweater. And it's just a very
Speaker:sad story. That they put in there, comparing the
Speaker:photos of, well, at least the drawing of
Speaker:Little Lord Fauntleroy and the photo of Homer Lemay.
Speaker:The one thing that I can point out that's different is and I'm not sure
Speaker:how black and white photos exactly work with blonde hair. But they said that Little
Speaker:Lord Fauntleroy Roy had blonde, curly hair, and Homer Lemay clearly
Speaker:has darker, straight hair. Could that have been something with the
Speaker:water? This body was in the pond for quite some time. Did it affect
Speaker:his hair in some way? But if you look at the drawing and the
Speaker:photo, it certainly could have been Homer Lemay. Right.
Speaker:Edmund Lemay ended up living until 1981 in
Speaker:the Milwaukee area. And he had another family.
Speaker:Right. He got remarried, I think, a few times. He had a whole new
Speaker:family. If you're trying to convict somebody of this, you could maybe
Speaker:presume that Edmunds got rid of his wife, got
Speaker:rid of his son and started all over again. What that
Speaker:means, though, is if they exhumed Little
Speaker:Lord Fauntleroy's body now, they could do a DNA check.
Speaker:You could certainly do a DNA check because the Lemay family still
Speaker:has people living to this day, distant relatives perhaps, right. And whether
Speaker:they want their dad or their grandfather, whatever he put through the wringer. But
Speaker:I would think even HH. Holmes great great grandson or
Speaker:whatever he wanted to know, like he had the body exhumed for the TV
Speaker:show. Right. And so you think somebody would come up with enough money, be like,
Speaker:hey, do the test. There's even a change petition that
Speaker:people can sign to demand exhuming the body. Not that the
Speaker:Walker Shop sheriff or whatever the police department is going to be like, okay,
Speaker:but with enough people are interested, they might be eventually able
Speaker:to hopefully settle something or at least find some relatives. Because if they find some
Speaker:relatives of this kid, well, then you might be able to have an idea
Speaker:who it was. And then finally, after a hundred years, we can put a
Speaker:name to this tragic case. Right. And it's on the outside. We're
Speaker:interested in this story because it's very different. Right. It's very tragic. And
Speaker:we certainly want to find out who fault Nor Roy was and maybe who did
Speaker:this to him. But then if you dig that body up and you find somebody
Speaker:who doesn't want to relive these memories or doesn't want to
Speaker:know, this was my relative, then you're kind of messing with history. Right? Yeah.
Speaker:And it's a very fine line that. You want to leave the dead
Speaker:rest in peace, but also you feel like there might be some
Speaker:closure just for if you believe in a soul or
Speaker:spirit that at least there was some justice
Speaker:historically to identifying this unknown boy
Speaker:and giving him a more prominent burial. So
Speaker:I think I could see how it'd be controversial, but I think ultimately it'd probably
Speaker:be the right move. Wouldn't it be nice to put a name to that instead
Speaker:of just being on your tombstone? Unknown boy? Yeah, we can
Speaker:certainly we have the means today to find out who he was.
Speaker:I'm sure that would put his soul to rest. Somebody else that was trying to
Speaker:put his soul to rest a few years ago was a psychic by the name
Speaker:of Marie St. Clair, and she did what she calls a
Speaker:psychic investigation into the little Lord Fauntleroy case.
Speaker:And that's a remote viewing thing where she tries to get into
Speaker:the head of the murder victim and kind of see what happened. And she kind
Speaker:of wrote down a lot of the stuff that she saw, and she
Speaker:writes it in first person. Let me read you an example. I'm in a house
Speaker:in a fancy parlor with lots of expensive furniture and a huge
Speaker:fireplace. The walls are pale. A wild navy colored carpet with a
Speaker:red, blue, and yellow leaf or floral pattern covers the floor.
Speaker:Overall, the vision is somewhat blurry. Now, I'm walking down a long
Speaker:hall. The same carpet covers the floor. And there's an ornate stairway
Speaker:at the end of which faces away from me. I must be at the back
Speaker:of the house. I see a slim man in a dark suit, neatly dressed with
Speaker:short hair. He has an immaculate appearance. His face is long and his eyes are
Speaker:dark. He looks young, and then he looks old. He's at a desk before a
Speaker:typewriter or other machine. Maybe it's a sewing machine. I can't make it out
Speaker:too well. The scene shifts. I see this man in a bathroom with an old
Speaker:style sink and tub. Then the view of a long haul again. And then she
Speaker:kind of goes into the different things. It's a grand home. It's got a big
Speaker:stairway. There's a parlor. She sees the man above her.
Speaker:The wall is covered with trophies. She thinks they
Speaker:indicate success, that maybe he's rich, he's into politics, or maybe he's a
Speaker:businessman. And then she kind of just grows with his psychic vision. She
Speaker:gets to the point where they enter a woods, and I return to the woods
Speaker:where the man stands on the hill. He throws the body over the side. I
Speaker:briefly get a flash of another man burly overweight with long, wavy reddish
Speaker:hair, a mustache. He's about 40. I don't know who he is or
Speaker:what his part in this is. Perhaps he witnessed this event and never told anyone.
Speaker:I see the boy's dead body lying in a rocky cove or cavernlike area
Speaker:on a thick bed of leaves. More leaves are all around him. I'm guessing
Speaker:that the water washes his body out from his resting place during the
Speaker:spring, as he was found in March. Well, that doesn't
Speaker:work, really, because how would water from the
Speaker:quarry reach some kind of forested area? It's
Speaker:in a limestone quarry. If they left him in the forest, it wouldn't
Speaker:just kind of wash in there and wash away a body. Well, I
Speaker:mean, it is a forested area, and specifically, back
Speaker:then there would have been many more trees. Perhaps the quarry wasn't that
Speaker:deep at that.
Speaker:Maybe. Okay, so maybe psychic marie Claire. She's onto something here. Well,
Speaker:and then I'm sure the man who lived in the big house killed him. I
Speaker:think the boy is his child and he's unwanted. I'm back at the mansion. I
Speaker:drift to another scene and an old woman, the one I saw in a wheelchair
Speaker:earlier, sits and cries. I see the boy, and he's in a simple house. Then
Speaker:he's sitting outside near the tower of the brick mansion. He cries
Speaker:alone, and no one comes to his aid. Basically, she says
Speaker:that she sees Edmund Lemay in her
Speaker:tall, Thin man in a dark suit is who she focuses on. She
Speaker:has a picture of Lemay in there. So basically, psychic
Speaker:Marie Claire, according to her investigation and her remote
Speaker:viewing, she blames the dad. Now, do we know was the Lemay
Speaker:family from Money? From my research, they were very basic
Speaker:at the time. It was a very simple family. They weren't from money. The trophy
Speaker:thing I don't think really checked out. Maybe if her psychic reading
Speaker:is onto something, it could be somebody entirely different. Right? And then
Speaker:Edmund Lemay is just another tall, thin man, you know, because the
Speaker:tall, thin men always get blamed for this kind of stuff. Especially in
Speaker:Waukeshaw. There's a whole nother tall, thin man that got blamed for something
Speaker:else, right?
Speaker:Let's say it was Edmund Lemay that kills his kid or anybody. That
Speaker:it wasn't some kind of murder. That
Speaker:was not like we think of murders today. We think of somebody killing a kid
Speaker:today. We think of, like, the guy that abducted Adam
Speaker:Walsh, kidnapped him and abused him and killed him. You think
Speaker:of someone that's got a van with no windows
Speaker:saying, hey kids, I got some candy, come on in here and kills them. So
Speaker:we think of these kind of psychos as murderers. That's not
Speaker:really who kills kids. Oh, this is
Speaker:Dr. Philip J. Resnick, and he did a lot of the studies and work
Speaker:on child murder back in the late sixty s. And he's still working on it.
Speaker:And this is from his philoside in the United
Speaker:States and the Indian Journal of Psychiatry in 2016. So philocide
Speaker:means killing your children. The United States has the highest rate of child murder
Speaker:among developed nations. The most common perpetrator of child homicide is a
Speaker:parent in infancy. The US rate of homicide is eight for every
Speaker:100,000, several times higher than Canada at 2.9 per
Speaker:100,000. About 2.5 of homicide arrests in the United States are for parents
Speaker:who have killed their children. 2.5%. Two and a half out of 100
Speaker:homicide arrests are for parents that kill their children. This amounts to
Speaker:about 500 a year. The rates of child homicide decrease
Speaker:with the child's age. So the younger the kid, the more likely they'll
Speaker:be kid by their parents. So he goes back in his initial study. And this
Speaker:is from Child Murder and Mental Illness in Parents implications for
Speaker:Psychiatrists by Dr. Resnick and Hatters Friedman,
Speaker:MD. And this is in the Journal of Clinical Psychiatry. Parents kill their children for
Speaker:five major reasons fatal maltreatment,
Speaker:altruistic. They're acutely psychotic. It's an
Speaker:unwanted child or spousal revenge. Fatal maltreatment
Speaker:deaths occurs at the end result of child abuse, neglect, or
Speaker:factitious disorder by proxy. That's munchausen, like the 6th
Speaker:sense. Remember the mom and the 6th sense was poisoning the kid. So it's
Speaker:munchausen by proxy. Or it's when people beat their kids and neglect. So that's when
Speaker:they die because the parents are jerks. And I mean, I guess if you kill
Speaker:your kid, you're a jerk no matter what. In altruistic cases, the parents kill
Speaker:out of love, believing that death is in their child's best interest. That can
Speaker:occur in psychosis or depression or when a child is terminally
Speaker:ill, like they're going to die anyway or they have some kind of cancer. Well,
Speaker:so could on a theory there, if this was from a
Speaker:not so well to do family and they thought that the child was
Speaker:supposed to die or had cancer, and this is how you're going to go, could
Speaker:they have dressed him up in a very fancy outfit, killed him and thrown him
Speaker:in the pond as like a burial ritual? Well, when we talk about the amount
Speaker:of homicides that happen of children, it's not the guy in the
Speaker:van. The vast majority are the parents.
Speaker:There's parents who acutely psychotic kill their child for no rational
Speaker:reason. That's when somebody's having let's say they're schizophrenic and they start hearing voices.
Speaker:That Satan's in the kids that's happened. Remember Andrea
Speaker:Yates in early two thousand s or late ninety s? I can't remember.
Speaker:But when she killed all her kids, like five kids and her husband came
Speaker:home and saw that that was she had a psychotic break. And that's something where
Speaker:that's guilty by reason of insanity versus unwanted children may
Speaker:be killed because they are seen as a hindrance to the parents own goals.
Speaker:That's something like, oh, we can't afford to feed you, or this
Speaker:kid's really getting in the way of my career kind of thing. And then there's
Speaker:the JB. Hodgson or whatever thing we were talking about with a woman in
Speaker:Chicago and that family when her brother came forward to the police and said
Speaker:that it was her no good husband that took the kids and killed them.
Speaker:Spouse revenge. One parent kills the child in order to severely
Speaker:emotionally wound the parent. These are all terrifying things.
Speaker:90% of Philistine perpetrators are biological parents. 10%
Speaker:are stepparents. Stepparents are far more likely to kill children than
Speaker:biological parents. In the child maltreatment homicides with
Speaker:abuse, neglect, fatal child abuse in stepparents is 100
Speaker:times higher than in biological parents. The strongest
Speaker:predictive factors of maternal child homicides. So if they were killed by their
Speaker:mother, if the child was killed so let's say little Lord Fauntleroy was killed by
Speaker:his mother are maternal, age of 19 years or less, education
Speaker:of twelve years or less. So they didn't finish high school. Single marital
Speaker:status, no husband, and late or absent prenatal care.
Speaker:They didn't do anything to take care of themselves or the baby when they were
Speaker:pregnant. Men, as opposed to women who kill their children, are more likely to
Speaker:kill. Older children are more likely to be
Speaker:unemployed, are more likely to be facing separation,
Speaker:spousal revenge, and are more likely to abuse alcohol or drugs.
Speaker:The kids 16 to 18 fathers commit those murders 80% of the
Speaker:time. Fathers are more likely to kill when there's doubt about paternity and
Speaker:when the child is viewed as an impediment to their career. Thanks, dad.
Speaker:So fathers are more likely to kill when there's doubt about paternity. That's the kind
Speaker:of thing you find out your six year old was not your kid, and so
Speaker:you freak out. Or that when you think about different kinds of
Speaker:motives that people could have to do such a horrible crime as
Speaker:a blunt force trauma on a six year old boy. Paramours
Speaker:rarely kill their own children. Let's say you married into a mixed family
Speaker:and you're a stepfather, as well as,
Speaker:like, there's another kid in there. They more often kill the sons of their
Speaker:predecessors, so you're much more likely to kill
Speaker:the kid of the ex husband than your own. That being said,
Speaker:what did the quarry worker say? That the woman was
Speaker:coming in and she was desperate and looking for a child, and they
Speaker:figured that she would have killed herself too, or maybe she was killed
Speaker:as well. So that was their first idea that, oh, they killed a
Speaker:child and then she killed herself for her. Let's dynamite the quarry to find the
Speaker:body. Blow out of the water. Philosophy suicide common factors in parents
Speaker:who kill their children themselves. This is again. Susan Hatters Friedman,
Speaker:philip J. Resnick. Deborah Hoyda, carol Holden and
Speaker:Stephen Nofsinger. These are all well educated people who have
Speaker:butchered their names, but this is in the Journal of the American Academy of Psychiatry
Speaker:and the Law. In January 2005, Resnick reported a
Speaker:relief of tension after altruistic and acutely
Speaker:psychotic philosophies. The expulsion of energy after the child's death
Speaker:explains why some parents who had intended philoside suicide to kill their kid
Speaker:themselves then didn't complete the act. Conversely, other parents,
Speaker:quote upon realization of the gravity of their act, may attempt
Speaker:suicide even when it was not planned. Unquote in the reported literature,
Speaker:a large proportion of philosophy have suicides with them.
Speaker:16% to 29% of mothers and 40% to 60% of fathers who
Speaker:commit killing their children also kill themselves. Fathers higher rates
Speaker:of philosophy suicide are possibly related to the higher male suicide rate in general.
Speaker:In children under five years of age, over 60% are killed
Speaker:by their parents. Meanwhile, the murder rate for US. Children under five years
Speaker:age is more than twice the rate of our Canadian neighbors children of that
Speaker:age. I just thought it was interesting that so many of
Speaker:they went into immediately looking for that
Speaker:the mother committed suicide if the child did too. And that
Speaker:seems to be that. The evidence and the data also supports
Speaker:that. Going a little bit later on the article women who commit
Speaker:infanticide and then attempt to take their own lives are also
Speaker:more likely to kill more children. So if
Speaker:they plan to go out, they plan for everybody to
Speaker:go out. But you're wondering
Speaker:why if we talk about the different reasons that you would kill a
Speaker:child and you say there's the psychotic which is what? That's the only one we
Speaker:could assume, right? That's the one we always assume. Like you got to be crazy
Speaker:if you're going to do that. Why would you ever do that? Well, that's a
Speaker:very modern interpretation and so the
Speaker:altruistic thing we'd say only maybe somebody would consider
Speaker:it not I hate to even say this as a parent
Speaker:somewhat moral, some kind of euthanasia, as morally
Speaker:acceptable. If your child has some kind of
Speaker:disease then they would just be miserable and so you got to put them out
Speaker:of their misery. But there were plenty of civilizations
Speaker:and parents throughout history that
Speaker:didn't think it was a negative thing to
Speaker:kill your children. And in fact it might have been an
Speaker:honor. What if it's part of your religion? Child
Speaker:sacrifice in the Western world. This is an article 2004, written by
Speaker:David Medima in the Journal of Critical Thinking and
Speaker:Bioethics. In order to understand the nature of ancient practices
Speaker:one must understand the mindset of tribes that participated in acts
Speaker:like child sacrifice. As many people know, several South American cultures
Speaker:held ritual games to determine who would be sacrificed. What many
Speaker:do not know is that in at least half of the cultures it was winners
Speaker:of the games who won the right to be sacrificed. In short,
Speaker:these people viewed it as an honor to become a sacrifice. Furthermore,
Speaker:it was a great privilege to give up one's children for this cause. In some
Speaker:South American cultures the sacrifices were annual whereas the
Speaker:details in certain Middle Eastern cultures varied. Some
Speaker:gods, such as Moloch required child sacrifice on a
Speaker:frequent almost daily basis while others, such as Baal required this
Speaker:annually. This was the people's worship to their gods and they expected
Speaker:to be rewarded. The cultures were convinced that by sacrificing
Speaker:their children quote their lives would be better
Speaker:unquote. And when we talk about an area that's
Speaker:right by Waukeshaw we have the
Speaker:ancient town of Astland and this is
Speaker:right about 30 miles. So it's outside of Waukeshaw County. It's in Jefferson
Speaker:County. And basically if you're taking I
Speaker:94 out of Waukeshaw towards Madison
Speaker:25 minutes later or maybe 20 minutes if you're. Going 75
Speaker:not to be confused with the Motocross track right on the highway there that's also
Speaker:called Asdalon. It's a state park. It's pushed back a little ways
Speaker:there, and it has several steppe pyramids and
Speaker:several burial mounds there. And it's an amazing place to visit.
Speaker:But Mike can tell us a little about the human sacrifice that
Speaker:happened there. Well, it's not like they're doing like the motorcycle races over the
Speaker:mounds. No, hopefully we're a little more respectful than that. So this is
Speaker:from the online collection from the Milwaukee Public Museum. Astoland was first discovered
Speaker:by Europeans in the fall of 1835 by Wisconsin territory settler
Speaker:Timothy Johnson. And upon hearing of the stories judge Nathaniel
Speaker:Hire, who is a Milwaukee settler, visited, it was Judge Hire who
Speaker:first gave asteland its name. The name asteland comes from the mistaken
Speaker:idea prevalent in the early 19th century that the site may have been the northern
Speaker:place of origin of the Aztecs of Mexico. As mentioned in their
Speaker:legends and oral traditions, judge Hier related Azteland to the
Speaker:Aztecs based on the resemblance he saw between its mounds and the
Speaker:Aztec pyramids. So the first scientific and systematic excavations
Speaker:of any archaeological site in the state of Wisconsin were conducted at asteland in
Speaker:1919 by Samuel Barrett and the Milwaukee Public
Speaker:Museum. Barrett conjectured that cannibalism was a major part
Speaker:of the Mississippian diet at asteland. Mississippian is the
Speaker:culture of the mound builders. They came from, and they had a
Speaker:gigantic city called Cahokia near St. Louis that they think
Speaker:Cahokia was about 1400 years ago when it was big, but they think
Speaker:at its biggest was up to 40,000 people. So a huge, huge
Speaker:city of this Mississippian culture, these mound builders. And she said the
Speaker:cannibalism was a major part of their diet, based on the numerous butchered, broken
Speaker:and burned human bones in refuse areas, fire pits, and the nature
Speaker:knoll area of the site in the southeast corner of the enclosure.
Speaker:Warfare and cannibalism are among the most heavily debated topics of archaeological
Speaker:research and interpretation, and they're also a great interest to people
Speaker:who like asteland. Since Barrett's initial excavations, it has been suggested
Speaker:that warfare and cannibalism were important organizing factors in Mississippi
Speaker:and societies as a whole. If they do represent cannibalism, several
Speaker:ethnographic analogies suggest it is possible that members of the society or
Speaker:war captives were consumed as part of ritualistic
Speaker:sacrifices. This is 30 miles away from where they
Speaker:found little lori Fauntleroy one of Astellan's most famous and intriguing
Speaker:discoveries was the burial of a young woman known. As the Princess of
Speaker:Astellon. This is the largest burial mound there. It's a large
Speaker:conical burial mound, measured about 50ft in diameter, standing
Speaker:6ft above the ground when it was constructed. This burial was one of the most
Speaker:unusual ones because it contained the remains of a female in her early 20s
Speaker:adorned with 1978
Speaker:perforated discoidal, local clamshells, and a few
Speaker:imported Gulf Coast marine shells. So from
Speaker:Mississippi, the princess was placed in her back in a fully extended position
Speaker:nearly 10ft from the surface of the mount. This astland individual was
Speaker:dubbed the princess by Samuel A. Barrett because he reasoned that her status
Speaker:as exhibited in this elaborate and distinct burial was likely
Speaker:inherited. But her actual status is unknown, of course, because we don't know anything about
Speaker:them. Now, he thought it could be because she's from an elite family or she
Speaker:was part of a chiefly lineage. That's the idea. So we have
Speaker:the princess who was found in
Speaker:Cahokia, little Lord Fauntleroy, dressed know. So
Speaker:she's dressed up to the knights, and the only burial there, the
Speaker:only one they found north of Cahokia that had that kind
Speaker:of ornamentation on her. And she wasn't necessarily a
Speaker:human sacrifice or anything. I don't even know if the Mississippian culture really
Speaker:did human sacrifices. That's above my pay grade. But I just think it
Speaker:was an interesting connection that you found
Speaker:famously in Wisconsin when you have two unknown
Speaker:bodies dressed up to the nines in their
Speaker:burial unidentified, they both end up being pretty
Speaker:close to each other, if not centuries apart. Right.
Speaker:Okay. So child sacrifice to us, sounds
Speaker:disgusting, right? Sounds horrible. We're shocked by it. When we talked about
Speaker:the Aztec culture like that, they mistakenly thought that Azteland was part of the
Speaker:Aztecs, the Aztecs and the Incas. We talk about human sacrifice
Speaker:and child sacrifice. They found a location in Peru where they thought they had
Speaker:194 kids sacrificed at once. A burial.
Speaker:Just insane. It's shocking. It was shocking to the Spanish explorers.
Speaker:That's part of the rationale that the Spanish
Speaker:conquistadors used to destroy those civilizations.
Speaker:Why would someone in modern times,
Speaker:or at least what we think of more modern times, maybe 100 years ago, why
Speaker:would they think that child sacrifice would be acceptable?
Speaker:Well, we're going back to everybody's favorite book of the Bible. You think about
Speaker:Christianity, early 20th century people look a lot more religious than they
Speaker:are now. Well, the story of Abraham, right? Who's the founder of the
Speaker:religion they call Judaism, Christianity and Islam the
Speaker:Abrahamic religions because he's the patriarch, the guy that
Speaker:started it. Genesis 22. Sometime later, God tested
Speaker:Abraham. He said to him, Abraham, here I am. He
Speaker:replied, Then God said, Take your son, your only son, whom you love,
Speaker:Isaac, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as
Speaker:a burnt offering on a mountain. I will show you. Early the next morning, Abraham
Speaker:got up and loaded his donkey. He took with him two of his servants and
Speaker:his son Isaac. When he had cut enough wood for the burnt offering, he set
Speaker:out for the place God had told him about. On the third day, Abraham looked
Speaker:up and saw the place in the distance. He said, his servants stay here with
Speaker:a donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship, and then
Speaker:we will come back to you. So he's already lying to his servants he's? No,
Speaker:no. This is setting up kind of a hit. God tells him he's got to
Speaker:kill his son. Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and placed it on
Speaker:his son Isaac. And he himself, he carried the fire and the knife. As the
Speaker:two of them went together, isaac spoke up and said to his dad or his
Speaker:father, Abraham father. Yes, my son? Abraham replied, the fire and
Speaker:wood are here, but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?
Speaker:Abraham answered, God himself will provide the lamb, my son.
Speaker:And the two of them went on together. When they reached the place God had
Speaker:told him about, abraham built the altar, arranged the wood. He bound his son Isaac
Speaker:and laid him on the altar on top of the wood. Then he reached out
Speaker:his hand and took the knife to slay his son. But the angel of Lord
Speaker:called out to him from heaven, said, Abraham, Abraham, here I am. He replied,
Speaker:do not lay a hand on the boy. He said, don't do anything to him.
Speaker:Now, I know that you fear God because you have not withheld from me your
Speaker:son, your only son. And then, because
Speaker:Abraham was willing to sacrifice his
Speaker:child when God commanded, he feared God so much
Speaker:that here's what the angel says. The angel of the Lord called to Abraham from
Speaker:heaven a second time and said, I swear by myself, declares the Lord,
Speaker:that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son,
Speaker:I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in
Speaker:the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of
Speaker:the cities of their enemies, and through your offspring, all nations on earth
Speaker:will be blessed because you have obeyed me. Well, right there in the Bible,
Speaker:we're not talking about some ancient text or the Phoenicians or
Speaker:we're talking about the regular Bible that we all learned in Sunday
Speaker:school. God commands you to kill your kid to be blessed. Right.
Speaker:Why would then somebody who's a little off
Speaker:or who's crazy think that? You hate to say crazy because
Speaker:that's not a scientific term. But somebody who is delusional
Speaker:might think they're doing an altruistic thing for their child by
Speaker:sacrificing them. This is coming in from Keith Reyes, the Department of
Speaker:Sociology and Anthropology. This is his dissertation from the
Speaker:University of Texas at El Paso. Philosopide as child
Speaker:Sacrifice in the Judeo Christian worldview of the United
Speaker:States, philoside is deemed by American society as one of the most
Speaker:incomprehensible merciless acts imaginable. Despite its reprehensible
Speaker:nature, over the past 25 years, philicide involving children less than
Speaker:five years of age in the United States has accounted for
Speaker:61% of all children's deaths, and that is a
Speaker:statistic. As of 2005. Contemporary maternal philoside has generally
Speaker:been one of two ways the perpetrating mother is either mad or
Speaker:bad. The mad mother generally performs philicide as a result of preexisting
Speaker:mental illness, usually brought on by postpartum depression, and the bad
Speaker:mother performs it as a result of being labeled a cold, evil mother who
Speaker:refuses to conform to Western societal standards of mothering. Mothers
Speaker:viewed as mentally ill generally conform to Western societal roles. They serve their homes
Speaker:in expressive roles, emotionally nurturing their children, and subserviently substantiating
Speaker:their husband's roles, the authority in the home in line with the Judeo Christian
Speaker:tradition. Okay, subservient wives forget that
Speaker:one in my house. But quite often the mothers in these
Speaker:relationships experience a lack of social support and have minimum social
Speaker:networking outside of their immediate family. These mothers are generally
Speaker:older, married. They don't resent their role. And so
Speaker:this idea that present research neglects the religious
Speaker:institution's ability to create a worldview which orients the action and
Speaker:normative behavior of society's members, and this paper
Speaker:disguised dissertation was research providing a framework that the
Speaker:JudeoChristian religion can create a worldview which
Speaker:simultaneously condemns and legitimates philiicide. It doesn't have
Speaker:to be a senseless, random act of violence. Rather, it's a consequence of
Speaker:the worldview which defines the sacrificial offering of one's
Speaker:most valued possessions to God as the quintessential
Speaker:act of worship. Okay, that was very
Speaker:dissertation language there. But by using
Speaker:the studies and things, you're saying that if we think of these
Speaker:murders or child sacrifices so disgusting and
Speaker:shocking and sometimes people can think they're doing the
Speaker:right thing and they don't have to be some kind of if we say
Speaker:some kind of primitive religion, some kind of part of
Speaker:some kind of cult that we cannot understand. People can warp their views.
Speaker:They can use the story of Abraham and everything to warp their view
Speaker:and think they're doing something good, even if they're
Speaker:raised in the religion most Americans end
Speaker:up being raised in. And we talk about little Lord
Speaker:Fauntleroy and the possible things that could have happened. Was he an
Speaker:unwanted child? He's not neglected because they dressed him up. Is it
Speaker:spousal? It could be spousal revenge. I mean, that's something get back at the mom.
Speaker:But why didn't the mom ever come to the police? Unless she was killed and
Speaker:disappeared too. Right? That's Edmund Lemay right there. Oh,
Speaker:my wife disappeared, and my kid died in Argentina.
Speaker:Bye. So not neglected, Edmund Lemay. Is spousal revenge
Speaker:the other options? I mean, a crazy person dressed their kid up? Acutely
Speaker:psychotic absolutely is a possibility, but altruistic,
Speaker:which we think of as no way. No way could these things
Speaker:be could a child sacrifice someone, justify it in their
Speaker:mind? I think they could. I think they could. I think with everything
Speaker:you've just presented yeah. It seems like somebody could in some way
Speaker:think, this is good that I'm. Doing that's just a little bit.
Speaker:Talking about what could the motives be of the murder
Speaker:of the poor, tragic story of
Speaker:the little boy who was found in the. Walkershaw
Speaker:quarry over a hundred years ago. Josh, if people want
Speaker:to learn more about your research and tours and the things that
Speaker:you're interested in, where can they find you? Americanghostwalks.com you could find
Speaker:the Waukesha page active on Instagram and Facebook
Speaker:waukeshaghosts. We do a bit more posting in the summer months,
Speaker:but there's always a lot of interesting things to find out. And there's
Speaker:some stories I don't talk about on the tour. And there's some more information and
Speaker:photos on Social where you can discover some more stuff for yourself.
Speaker:Yeah, and if you have an idea for a walk of Shaw ghost
Speaker:story, reach out to Josh. He'd love to research it and
Speaker:maybe add it to his tour. If you have a haunted house, you know where
Speaker:to find me, right? Who are you going to call? Josh.
Speaker:And once Josh gets the story, I know he'll pass it on to Jeff. And
Speaker:you can find Jeff, and he. Can share that story statewide at Badgerland
Speaker:Legends on Instagram and Facebook. Badgerlandlegends.com.
Speaker:Fantastic. And you can find American ghostwalks
Speaker:in seven different states, plus Puerto Rico, all over Wisconsin and
Speaker:Wisconsin Legends. And thank you very much for joining us on
Speaker:this episode, the tragic episode, the story of a Little Lord
Speaker:Fauntleroy on Wisconsin Legends podcast.
Speaker:On March 8, 2023, josh and I made a
Speaker:pilgrimage to Prairie Home Cemetery in Waukeshaw
Speaker:exactly 102 years after the discovery of
Speaker:his body. We intended to continue that tradition
Speaker:that many Conrads started all those years ago. We
Speaker:visited the grave of the unknown boy and placed flowers on that
Speaker:grave. We tried to make contact with him to see if he'd
Speaker:come through to reveal his identity.
Speaker:I know it's been some time since Minnie Conrad has
Speaker:visited you, but she was the one that paid for your grave
Speaker:and your suit and everything. If there's any sort of
Speaker:information you want to give us your name, your family, your parents,
Speaker:anything so we can help identify you, that would be great.
Speaker:We're going to walk over to Minnie Conrad's grave, and we'll leave this
Speaker:here just in case you're shy.
Speaker:Although it was unclear whether we made contact with the young
Speaker:boy, we intend to keep the tradition alive that many
Speaker:Conrads started all those years ago. We hope
Speaker:the young boy's soul is at rest.
Speaker:The Wisconsin Legends Podcast is presented by American
Speaker:ghostwalks, hosted by Mike Huberdine and Jeff Venom, recorded
Speaker:at Sunspot Studios in Madison, Wisconsin, edited by Jeff
Speaker:Venom, audio engineer Mike Kubernetes, music by
Speaker:Sunspot and various artists. Find out more about the show, including
Speaker:show notes@wisconsinlegendspodcast.com. Follow
Speaker:the guys at American ghostwalks and Badgerland Legends on Instagram
Speaker:and Facebook. We'll see you next time.
Speaker:Sam
Speaker:you.
Speaker:Thanks for listening. If you enjoy Wisconsin paranormal
Speaker:experiences and ghost stories and UFO sightings and monster
Speaker:legends and true history and crime stories just as much
Speaker:as Jeff and I do, then you're going to love the 2023
Speaker:Milwaukee Paracon happening October 13, the 15th
Speaker:in the Bruce City. It's three days of
Speaker:paranormal concerts and parties and
Speaker:activities and ghost tours. But the October
Speaker:14 Saturday conference that features
Speaker:presentations all about Wisconsin paranormal and some of the best
Speaker:vendors with the most unique products you're going to see all year long.
Speaker:That's going to be absolutely free at the Irish Cultural and Heritage Center
Speaker:in downtown Milwaukee on Saturday, October 14, going from 10:00
Speaker:A.m. To 06:00 P.m.. And we'll be doing a Wisconsin Legends
Speaker:podcast live at the event. We can't wait to see you.
Speaker:We're going to be diving deep into the mysteries of Milwaukee and we hope you
Speaker:join us. Absolutely free Milwaukeeparacon.com.
Speaker:So come down to 2023 Milwaukee Paranormal Conference
Speaker:Milwaukeeparacon.com and we'll haunt you there.
